Hitchens: deism, theism, wishful thinking.
Posted by James on April 7, 2012 · 49 Comments
Another piece of the debate Turek vs. Hitchens at VCU in Richmond, VA complete at: www.vimeo.com CH argument: There is an infinite possibility of “god-assertions” (Ra, Jehova, Huitzlopochtli, etc. up to the “personal god”) that cannot be disproven. Atheists however do not deny those gods existence, which is logically impossible, they simply say there is no empirical evidence for such an assertion. Deism, while being empirically not necessary -science offers better explanations- is also not Theism: the argument from design does not imply (and cannot) the Christian god or any interventionist god. Further, the spiritual language of many scientists does not necessarily mean they believe in god. Interesting for those who want to learn how to argue consistently: en.wikipedia.org
SORRY: THE SHIRT IS SOLD OUT. SORRY! (But you can always design your own!) In which John discusses the hurdles to Chewbacca becoming President of the United States in 2012–and also discusses how wookies can jump any hurdle.
I’m satisfied that the cosmological argument is embarrassing and doesn’t? stand up to close examination.
And I don’t think Ockham forwards the case ENOUGH for it to merit being called anything else but a case with no evidence.
We need more data.
I would like to add: If you reread the Voltaire quote a provided you will see the part that reads “from this sole argument…”. Here he is referring to the teleological argument. If one is convinced by the prime mover argument, first put forth by Aristotle then it is logical to favor a single agent. Coupled with the principle of Ockham and your argument becomes stronger.
I personally am not nearly as convinced by the necessity of a prime mover argument nor cosmological? arguments, but some are.
agreed.?
…. notion of some mysterious intelligence(s) who played a role in bringing about the Universe is a reasonable philosophical conclusion one can arrive? at that is supported by sound argument and evidence. I would also argue that it is a more sound explanation for the nature of the Universe than blind chance as many (not all) atheists suggest.
…being has made matter out of nothing and that he is infinite in every sense.”
Hume who was a deist said:
“”why may not several deities combine in contriving and framing the world?”
These objections you raise are indeed valid. And deists who begin to describe and define the nature of this intelligence(s)? are indeed speculating. I think deists will admit to this. That they are using reasoning to draw abstract conclusion about things.
I would argue however that the…..
These are actually not problems of deism, because deism doesn’t ? necessarily imply a single omnipotent creator. At its most fundamental level deism only implies an intelligence responsible in some way or another for the Universe.
Voltaire who was a deist said:
“… from this sole argument I cannot conclude anything further than that it is probable that an intelligent and superior being has skillfully prepared and fashioned the matter. I cannot conclude from that alone that this….
Microsoft Sam..? 🙂
7:24 In a sea? of angry faces and folded arms there is one happy face that seems to say, “Thank goodness! THIS is what I’ve been trying to tell all these douchebags all along!”
Deism doesn’t lead to Christianity or any? other revealed religions. Nevertheless, I’m a deist due to its strong case.
Problems with deism: There are no logically valid inference that can be made which favor the idea of 1 creator vs. 17 or more? creators being the “architects” of the universe. And as for the “all powerful” nature of this creator(s) – no. This is also not implied. The “architects” may very well have their own limitations.
It’s all speculation, my friends. Reserve judgment until we have better data. Don’t rush off to certainty because your position is untenable, divisive & dangerous.
so im not sure about the? wishful thinking part.
yeah actually? most deist don’t believe in a personal god.
Someone explain how deism is? wishful thinking…
Excuse my poor grammar. You managed to get what I meant anyway. I don’t necessarily attribute it to a ‘intelligent designer’, just some kind of intelligence/providence that may have always been there. We can’t airbrush eternity out of the equation. And yes, the existence of some form of intelligence begs certain awkward question, but no less so than the answers to the ‘what came before the big bang’? question. I can’t see how the odds of an intelligence would be greater than it not.
Whoa. I really didn’t understand those 2 sentences. Are you saying the argument is ‘something from nothing’ vs ‘something from something’, and you also believe the latter is more? probable, which you attribute to an intelligent designer?
There is the? argument of whether the probability that the whole of existence could spring from nothing is greater or lesser than there being something there in the first place that exists as some kind of intelligence. I think something springing from nothing has the lesser probability right now and do not share the confident that a cosmological ‘darwinian revolution’ is almost an inevitability that some do, although don’t rule it out.
No problem (about the? delayed reply). Conflicting definitions? I suppose my next question is this: Supposedly, deistic thinking is based on the “clockwork universe theory”, which is say that the supreme architect set up natural deterministic laws i.e. cause and effect. However, since discovery of quantum mechanics, this idea is no longer valid as randomness has been found to exist. To me, this fact renders deistic belief obsolete. Unless there’s a reason I’m missing?
how do you define deism? As I understand? it, a creator sets the rules of evolution and then doesn’t intervene. Not a personal god but still the original creator of the universe. Thoughts?
and a drunken one? at the moment..
A fellow deist? Chris like any debater they’ll go to any argument that will prove their cases definitely if their cases example makes the other end of the argument look like a babbling fool. In my opinion believe in Deism because I strongly feel there is something out there. Religion has messed up it up, atheist or agnostics usually believe in science which can’t completely disprove it.. Who is completely right.. there is no answer? until death.. Unfortunately this is just a theory…
? Sad….
If God’s creation is so complicated, wouldn’t his (in the spiritual realm be as just complicated if we are created in his image?) Like we have courts, organzation, laws, etc etc. Wouldn’t the spirirtual? realm have the same? Why would God punish a “adulterer the same as a serial killer” He simply would not, so why would God judge a human being on how they were raised or the opinions they gained out of their free will. He simply wouldn’t, in my opinion. I could go on, but I am sleepy.
4) In my opinion of God I don’t think he would punish a soul (Hell, Hades, etc? etc) just because he doesn’t believe in Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, or nothing at all. Man had distorted things so bad that I feel that God looks completely at ones heart and actions. to shorten this opinion down.
read my post below this. Sorry it took? me so long to get back.
3) Desist for the most part come to a reasonable understanding that “God” cannot be defined by one religion . That God is good and we as a people have to reach a reasonable understanding what what is right and wrong.(killing-bad, helping homeless- good,? etc etc
Let? the Wookie win!!
I really want to vote for Chewbacca? this year.
i was thinking? the same thing.
DFTBA
i want the t-shirt and the free download…? John, Hank make it happen. nerdviteria is telling you to do it.
DFTBA
Oh yeah! *digs out Chewie for Prez shirt* now this? is relevant!
I want that t-shirt so badly I know I’ll be branded as a star wars nerd but I’m like 4 different nerds but that t is amazing :)?
I’d? rather have chewbacca than obama
You forgot to? say spoiler alert….damn. Now i’m all sad and stuff.
dear john,
i was in class? friday and my entire class watches the news and the teacher ask who do you want to be president i raised my hand and yelled CHEWBAKA LET THE WOOKIE WIN!!!! and then i got lunch detention…. Best lunch detention of my life
I’m to lazy to check if someone? pointed this out already. So just in case, Wookiee.
The idea of Chewy is? American.
Which is the textbook definition? of a dork. =P
to be specific, I am? a nerdfighter who get excited every time she discovers a reference that she actually understands lol
I don’t want? to alarm you, but you may be a giant dork, don’t be alarmed, it’s a good thing.
Please reprint this? shirt!
don’t forget that Chewy will? rip your arms off if you beat him at a game. ;D
Please sell this shirt? again 🙂
let the wookie win! John knows? all, i think we should listen.
So the shirt is sold out, but is? there still a way to download the song without having purchased the shirt? I want itttttt.
This shirt is not for sale on the? dtf.ba website anymore, but it has come to my attention that owning any shirt but that shirt would be a waste of my time. Please tell me where I could get this shirt before I explode! And DFTBA. 🙂
As these Republican candidates continue to roll in, I’m beginning to take this “Chewbacca/Solo 2012” plan much more seriously.
Actually, I’m all for it. I say Let the? Wookiee Win, dammit!
These t-shirts must be re-released!
Let the Wookie? win! Oh yeeeeah! So clever.
If I were 18, I’d probably vote for him…?
This? T-Shirt needs to be re-released.
Since it is now extremely, EXTREMELY relevant!
Pleasepleasepleasepleaseee?